ARFC_B_X_Spelunking (ends oct 22 at 18:00 GMT)

[mark_man]

4780- Maybe.

[darkcatalyst]

You say that any force generated by overlapping affecting the soulution to work is dark. I totally agree with you on that . My post was just aiming to deal with the destruction theme in the post I was answering to. There is more stuff that is known as force. when it comes to the new invntioned UFO - I definately expect that will be considered as dark in the future - as it is clearly not intended as part of the physics in the game or has any relations to any natural laws in the real world.

I think the issue is sticky because, in this case, the last two points you mentioned may be at odds: "not intended as part of the physics in the game" and "[conforming to] natural laws in the real world."

Clarification on clipping: I define it as placing a metal bar/metal sheet/piece of rubber such that its endnodes overlap endnodes from objects already in the level in order to, to put it scientifically, break shit. Most likely, this was "not intended as part of the physics of the game" (although we can't be entirely sure, I think it's a safe assumption).

However, I wouldn't argue that it violates "[conforming to] natural laws in the real world." When you're placing objects into a level, it is as if time is in temporary stasis. If you place two objects so that they're trying to occupy the same space, when stasis ends and time resumes, they are going to push away from each other, thereby generating some sort of outward force (and possibly leading to destruction). An example of this could be visualized as compressing two rubber balls together in stasis - when the flow of time resumes, they'll shoot outwards (think Newton's Third Law Of Motion).

This is in direct contrast to "force paddles," which create a sort of perpetual motion that could never be ascribed to any aspect of physics, and are also ostensibly not by the programmer's design.

I'm not trying to argue that clipping should be light - quite frankly I don't care, I'm going to use it anyway - if I get a dark medal, that's cool. But it is an interesting issue to ponder.

BTW, I may just have 4780 as well.

[?rjan Flatseth]

So conclusion is that we all mostly agree on most stuff and that the stash remain the same and we take it from there
(Hope your 4780 is darkish)

[mark_man]

I use forces to force something but not in a dark way

[?rjan Flatseth]

Hmm, when I think about it. Same here.

[dudiobugtron]

[Clarification on clipping: I define it as placing a metal bar/metal sheet/piece of rubber such that its endnodes overlap endnodes from objects already in the level in order to, to put it scientifically, break shit. Most likely, this was "not intended as part of the physics of the game" (although we can't be entirely sure, I think it's a safe assumption).

However, I wouldn't argue that it violates "[conforming to] natural laws in the real world." When you're placing objects into a level, it is as if time is in temporary stasis. If you place two objects so that they're trying to occupy the same space, when stasis ends and time resumes, they are going to push away from each other, thereby generating some sort of outward force (and possibly leading to destruction). An example of this could be visualized as compressing two rubber balls together in stasis - when the flow of time resumes, they'll shoot outwards (think Newton's Third Law Of Motion).

This is in direct contrast to "force paddles," which create a sort of perpetual motion that could never be ascribed to any aspect of physics, and are also ostensibly not by the programmer's design.

I'm not trying to argue that clipping should be light - quite frankly I don't care, I'm going to use it anyway - if I get a dark medal, that's cool. But it is an interesting issue to ponder.

'Clipping' as you call it is most definitely dark, it was probably the biggest motivator for a 'dark' solution type after force paddles. In my opinion it uses exactly the same 'force' - the goal might be asthetically different but the mechanism remains the same.

Your analogy isn't 100% correct - by overlapping materials you aren't 'squishing them together', you are 'melding' them so they occupy the same space. If you did this to two rubber balls, I cannot tell you what would happen because it is pretty crazy to even think about. I doubt they would behave like they do in AR though (although, who knows?!)

[darkcatalyst]

Your analogy isn't 100% correct - by overlapping materials you aren't 'squishing them together', you are 'melding' them so they occupy the same space. If you did this to two rubber balls, I cannot tell you what would happen because it is pretty crazy to even think about. I doubt they would behave like they do in AR though (although, who knows?!)

Not to get into a dumb argument, but I don't see how you can assume they're being 'melded.' If this were the case, you'd expect the result to be something like welding, ie. they would stick together. I think that considering it 'squishing' is a bit more accurate, hence the pushing outward (even though metals are not very elastic, you could expect some kind of rebound effect).

I guess the bottom line is that it's up for interpretation, since we're describing a simulation and not a physics experiment.

Regardless, point taken about clipping being dark, I was simply unsure. Next question is, can your score beat mine??

[dudiobugtron]

Not to get into a dumb argument, but I don't see how you can assume they're being 'melded.' If this were the case, you'd expect the result to be something like welding, ie. they would stick together. I think that considering it 'squishing' is a bit more accurate, hence the pushing outward (even though metals are not very elastic, you could expect some kind of rebound effect).

I guess the bottom line is that it's up for interpretation, since we're describing a simulation and not a physics experiment.

Dumb arguments are what internet forums are made of!

Anyway, the reason I assumed there was 'melding' going on is because that's what it looks like - the pieces cleary don't get squished.
However squishing is a much more accurate explanation of why they try to move apart from each other, so I can see why you like it.

I prefer the 'melding' idea overall, however, because of the way it looks in the game. Metal/rubber doesn't deform or bend, it can only be compressed or extended along one axis. Also, in real life, no matter how strangely you squish two balls together they won't create perpetual motion!

[mark_man]

Next question is, can your score beat mine??

What is your score by any chance.

[darkcatalyst]

Dumb arguments are what internet forums are made of!

Anyway, the reason I assumed there was 'melding' going on is because that's what it looks like - the pieces cleary don't get squished.
However squishing is a much more accurate explanation of why they try to move apart from each other, so I can see why you like it.

Hahah, very true - ever see that great image, "Arguing over the internet: Even if you win, you're still retarded." That one cracks me up...maybe I'm a bad person.

But yeah, I can definately see your point with melding. I guess the term to me implies that two things are sticking together (meld coming from the words melt + weld). And it's true that they don't appear to be 'squishing,' but I see that as a result of the fact that time is stopped, which allows you to place two solid objects in the same space. But upon resuming time, if the endnodes are overlapping, they repel.

To each his own, there's definately no 'correct' interpretation. The more perspectives you have, the better your understanding will be - "Nothing is true; Everything is permitted."

But I think you may be just be arguing to conceal notice of your crazy score from myself and mark_man! I'm assuming the target for this contest is going to be somewhere around 4790...you there yet?

[mark_man]

Yep +

[ASAM]

I`ve posted 4800, i think - that is Light solution.

May be - it can be optimized... But ... already posted

[Toa the Boa]

4840+

[?rjan Flatseth]

[darkcatalyst]

Uh oh, looks like I'm screwed.

Damn you Toa!!