ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

The more complex contest running once a week. Recommended for advanced players.

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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby Votart Silak » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:57 am

750+ :lms: :D
Life as a zebra: that a light, that a dark, and in the end - an ass!
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby markmadras » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:15 am

760+ :lms: with a bit to spare after a re-tweak :)
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby mi2 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:19 am

just a few words from me. i got solutions from mark,rob and votart. i had to call mark and rob´s solution as dark. You guys bend the rules to much so there is a force and thats not light. i also can tell you that my poc scores the best light for now.

where are the other guys like mx. sendai and jim ? let me see what you can do :)
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby Votart Silak » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:31 am

777+ :lms: 100% Ultralight
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby markmadras » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:49 am

mi2 wrote:just a few words from me. i got solutions from mark,rob and votart. i had to call mark and rob´s solution as dark. You guys bend the rules to much so there is a force and thats not light. i also can tell you that my poc scores the best light for now.

where are the other guys like mx. sendai and jim ? let me see what you can do :)



There is nothing in my solution which breaks any of the existing Light rules. Welding used to be allowed in light solutions until the rules were changed, if the rotating force created by arranging levers against each other is to be considered Dark then this needs to be clarified in the rules. You cannot clasify something as Dark if there is no present rule against it (as was the case with welding) unless it is declared as a special rule of the individual contest. No matter what we construct there will always be some Dark force present and we will take advantage of it. The only way to stop using it completely will be to move all contests over to the new AR2.

We have all been using the Light version of the mi2 launcher which is driven by Dark force due to layering levers yet nobody has classed this as Dark :?

If the rotational force I have created in my construction is going to be classed as Dark then the mi2 Light launcher will also have to be classed as Dark. And finally, imo, I think it would be most unfair to try and implement new rules in the middle of a contest.
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby Votart Silak » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:58 am

In my solution there is no even a hint on dark power 8)
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby mi2 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:14 pm

markmadras wrote:
mi2 wrote:just a few words from me. i got solutions from mark,rob and votart. i had to call mark and rob´s solution as dark. You guys bend the rules to much so there is a force and thats not light. i also can tell you that my poc scores the best light for now.

where are the other guys like mx. sendai and jim ? let me see what you can do :)



There is nothing in my solution which breaks any of the existing Light rules.


there is a strong force! come on mark this isn't light. just because there is no overlapping it don't mean its light. we had this discussion at the loop contest. rob build this not overlapping rotating thing and everybody said " thats dark" and this is the same case :? . there are millions of ways in :armadillo: to build a solution.
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby markmadras » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:28 pm

I agree there is Dark force present in my construction but it is no different to the Light version of the mi2 launcher which we all use and I have not broken any of the Light rules, don't forget welding was Dark but it was classed as Light. :)

Furthermore, I love this game so I will enjoy playing it no matter what the rules are but they need to be defined. My previous submission used a very similar lever system but that (although clearly having Dark energy) was not rejected as Light. The method used to create energy by pressing nodes or any other material together is either acceptable in Light solutions or it is not, it has to be defined and not just a matter of opinion by the host. The only Light construction banned from the "Loops" contest was perpetual motion which Rob found to be possible without welding so in that instance and because of the nature of the contest it was considered Dark, but mi2 launchers were allowed and still are and as we all know they create Dark energy aswell. I have done two solutions with very similar lever systems for this contest, one has been considered Dark and the other Light yet both produce Dark energy, in reality they can only be considered both Dark or Both Light. The degree of Dark energy produced cannot be a governing factor in deciding if a construction is Light or Dark as there is no way to measure it and to make it completely fair to every player this cannot be judged by the host it has to be a clear defined rule of the game.

In my opinion we have to consider the production of Dark energy in any way, shape or form to be Dark and not acceptable in Light solutions or we continue with the present rules which simply class welding as Dark but allow Dark energy to be produced by other means.

As is the nature of the bug in the program that produces Dark energy the only way to stop it being used in Light solutions is to all change over to AR2. It will be simple, we use AR2 version2 for Light solutions and version1 for Dark then there can be no more problems like this one and other debates that have occured in the past. :)
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby rob » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:55 pm

I agree with mark that the force used here (at least in my solution) is comparable to the force in the light version of the mi2 launcher. But the contesthost decides what is dark so I now have a 810+ :dms:

I am making a level that contains a couple of different types of ultralight dark power, as soon as that is done I think we should continue this discussion in the DARK RULES REDEFENITION topic: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2229
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby markmadras » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:20 pm

I was hoping my opinion would not be alone :) I put my comments into the Dark force topic just as rob was posting his. This matter needs prompt attention so I hope everyone will make their feelings known so the problem can be resolved quickly.

Like Rob I too have a nice Dark solution now but only got it to 785 :dms: if I put in some welding maybe I can get more :)
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby JimCDubb » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:48 pm

Found some time today to try this one. :)

800+ Ultra :lms:
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby Votart Silak » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:56 pm

I'm agree that light rules must be redefine but in next contests!
I'm opening my result:
869 Super-puper-absolutely Ultralight :lms:
and
887 old kind Dark :dms:
Life as a zebra: that a light, that a dark, and in the end - an ass!
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby markmadras » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:21 pm

Please all have a vote on the poll I have started, link below. For the sake of the games longevity this Dark rules debate needs to be put to a conclusive end once and for all. This would never have started had it not been for an error in the program which has now been removed. True Light solutions can now be made without any possibility of breaking the rules.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2351
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby V4nKw15h » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:08 pm

Sorry to butt in with an opinion after being silent for so long but with AR2beta available the whole arguement on what is light or dark suddenly becomes totally redundant doesn't it? There is no dark force in AR2.

Why not just switch all competitions to AR2 and take advantage of the great new features. Being able to price how much timers/rubber/tension/elastic and all other materials cost upon level creation is going to add so much new gameplay. It seems a little pointless even continuing with AR1 unless a showstopping bug is found in AR2. Imagine levels with elastic that costs no more than rope. That alone is going to open up so many totally new types of solutions.

We need to test AR2 also and there is no better way than under the rigorous play of competition.

Then if anyone simply can't live without the Force, we can maybe shift a new Dark Force league into the C league that uses AR1.

I know I'm very much looking forward to the vast choices that $100 rockets, $40 tension, $10 elastic, $30 timers etc will bring. We will be coming up with the crazy contraptions that AR allows but were never feasible in competition before. I was bored of using the same handful of techniques over and over with no variety. AR2 is going to completely change all that.
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Re: ARFC_B_155_tiny_tube (ends 12 September, 2009 @ 20:00 GMT)

Postby markmadras » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:51 pm

Lets not forget the other great features like variable gravity which will add a whole new dimension to the game, the Dillo can be as light as a feather or weigh several tons. There is also a whole lot of fun that can be had with more than one Dillo, up to five, all colour coded along with corresponding portals but you can choose how many need to get to their respective portals. There is also a function to speed up the simulation of the level which before you could only slow down. Any construction technique will be allowed because whatever you construct it will not create any Dark energy. There has also been improvements to air resistance, the Dillo will now bounce off all materials more true to nature and will no longer fall through any material outside of the boundary.

The poll I opened has got to 4-0 in favour of using AR2. Please lets have some more votes :)
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