ARFC_A_IL ?esulst

[Njaa]

He overlaps to gain a new anchor point.

Thats still considered light

http://armadillo.metaclassofnil.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=609

In this competition the same question was raised. As far as I remember Rebel won both medals that time, which would suggest otherwise.

[Ryo_Sangnoir]

Wasn't (Isn't?) using metal bars to break through cloth (placing metal bars in the cloth) still considered light fairly recently? That surprised me.

In this situation, I'd say light. Like welding, not attempting any sustained dark motion. If the metal sheet hadn't broken, I think it would have been a welding example.

[Ikerous]

http://armadillo.metaclassofnil.com/for ... .php?t=277

Last post says overlapping is okay, it's only dark if force is generated

Edit: Basically the same stuff as ^ he was saying

[squint]

Yes, I'm the Squint who made the 'maytheforcebewithyou' level ... they were called "metal rod of destruction" untill that point

I attached my rubber to the metal sheets instead of the anchor points because I considered that dark (I should have thought of using a metal bar to get past though - doh). My opinion was always if the _end_ of the rod/sheet intersects, it's dark, whether the force is being utilized or not, simply because if the game was ever modified to prevent the force, that's the behaviour it would prevent... If an end doesn't interesect it's just welding. I got outvoted on that last time too though :/

[Njaa]

There is a big difference in welding and overlapping endpoints.

[Unw]

or exploding pieces by intersecting materials and endnodes

also appears in the rules

[dudiobugtron]

Does he use dark force to gain his goal? im 67% sure that Ikerous entry is light enough.

This is the crux of the issue. The question isn't whether the materials overlapped, but whether Ikerous 'used' overlapping endpoints to acheive his goal. Note - The rules say that using a 'bug in the physics engine' makes it a dark solution, and that overlapping endpoints with materials is a bug in the physics engine. So, did Ikerous 'use' the bug?

I haven't watched the solutions so I don't know*, but since there is dispute then it is up to the contest host to decide. ?rjan thinks it is light so I'm happy with the medal allocation.



*(however, I am going to watch them - I want to see how Unw beat me by 28!!!! I can't wait to see his catcher.)

[Ryo_Sangnoir]

I'd say that, if the metal sheet HADN'T exploded, it would have been welding, and light grey, and therefore winning. With this, the end-point bug IS used - the rubber moves minorly to the left, 0.01 seconds into the simulation. The force, like the the annoying cloth force bug, doesn't really provide any assistance in this situation - tweaking of the end position of the rubber would still be done the same way.

We should probably have more concrete rules

Is force that doesn't benefit you dark?
What is to be done about the cloth bug (cloth goes through cloth quite easily)?
Is metal sheets drawn through cloth (weldingish) being used to break the cloth dark?
Currently, material not interacting with itself outside level boundaries counts as light. Should this be changed as unrealistic in real life, and therefore dark?

But, seeing as ?rjan thinks it's light and the next contest has already started, these points don't really matter.

I think the final verdict is "host decides". So, it's light for this contest.

[mark_man]

Ioncorpse Didn't need the extra bar but used it to avoid the overlap {light} .
TAKEN from the rule's:-exploding pieces by intersecting materials and endnodes, will win the Dark Force prize if they score higher than the best light solution.

At the very least this should be considered a draw in the name of fairness.

The rule makers really need to look at what is OK and what is not as this example opens up a can of worms .Especially with coming comps if this is left as is.

All imo

[Njaa]

Well, I think we should get a ruling on this, and then both of them gets a medal. After all, both did what they thought was right according to the rules.

And when it comes to the rules: Ikerous' solution could not have been done without overlapping and creating that force. He gains an anchor point. That's the issue. He didn't overlook it as some people may have done earlier when overlapping metal bars acting as weight. In those cases the solution wasn't dependent on this bug, you could just move the bars from each other.

This solution, however, is dependent on the bug, and the best way to "fix" it is to do what ioncorpse did. Unfortunately, this cost him 10 bucks.

Again, I don't think that the little push the rubber sustains from the force outcome matters. What matters is the advantage of a new anchor point.

[luka1222]

i like cake

[dudiobugtron]

TAKEN from the rule's:-exploding pieces by intersecting materials and endnodes, will win the Dark Force prize if they score higher than the best light solution.

That part of the rules was written assuming that exploding the pieces helped you in some way. merely exploding pieces without benefitting from them exploding shouldn't be dark IMO.

cf:

Is force that doesn't benefit you dark?

By my interpretation of the rules, no it isn't. Also, in my opinion
If you want to add a fun force contraption in the corner of your solution which doesn't help you, and you still somehow win, then you certainly deserve the light prize!!!

What is to be done about the cloth bug (cloth goes through cloth quite easily)?

This is a pain but it is usually just welding so is light.

Is metal sheets drawn through cloth (weldingish) being used to break the cloth dark?

This is a tough one. If the cloth breaks because of weight on it, then sure that is allowed. But if it breaks because of the crazy angle the metal is put through the cloth, then it is dark. However, unless the cloth is tensioned, I think you'll find it pretty hard to break cloth just by putting one piece of metal through it without overlapping any endpoints with material.

That said - as far as I can work out, cloth is a bit weird, it seems like it has a bunch of 'mini endpoints' in it, and overlapping with these causes more problems than going between them.

Currently, material not interacting with itself outside level boundaries counts as light. Should this be changed as unrealistic in real life, and therefore dark?

I beleive it should if it benefits you. If it's just a bunch of metal bars used as a weight which overlap once they go to low, then of course it shouldn't.
However according to the many successive applications of the rules in this situation, it is light. Takign advantage of other unrealistic things (eg: welding, the simplified friction and drag, anchor points etc...) are allowed too so it's not that unfair.

The rule makers really need to look at what is OK and what is not as this example opens up a can of worms

I agree, although the can of worms was already opened ages ago. We are just eating them now. Also, the 'rule makers' is the community.

[luka1222]

i still like cake

[mark_man]

I love cake,too much

[luka1222]

cake is great, second only to pie

see cheesecake thats a better debate to have, is it a cake or some sort of pie?
i dont think we will ever know