ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

The easier general contest type that runs twice per week.

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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby Overlord » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:58 am

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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby sendai45 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:10 am

So Mi2, it's your call. is welding light or dark on this level?

Edit: If welding goes dark, I am going to really miss towers of X'ed bars.

$1710+ Ultra :lms: (No overlapping nodes or ANY welding at all.)
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby Votart Silak » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:16 am

My opinion: "mi2 launcher" in dark solutions will be applied seldom, there the nonsense suffices. It was good for light. It is a pity if it recognise as dark force. If to consider the lever based on welding by dark force, then Archimedes :dms: and Newton :dms: champions of Darkness.
I suggest still to forbid to build mechanisms at which there are no the points of support, so to say groundless or falling with the sky. If they are necessary, they there should rise rockets from the Earth or be thrown light launchers :D
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Life as a zebra: that a light, that a dark, and in the end - an ass!
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby markmadras » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:50 am

Leaving the host of the contest to decide what will and will not be allowed has to be the easiest way forward. All the existing rules for Light and Dark would remain unchanged.
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby Votart Silak » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:12 am

sendai45 wrote:$1710+ Ultra :lms: (No overlapping nodes or ANY welding at all.)

1720+Ultra :lms: :D

Overlord launcher from A 251 is Ultra Light and costs more expensively on $40-60 than at mi2, but all the same is cheaper than a pulley.
So in certain cases fans of pulleys will suck.

EDIT:
I play the opened:
1728 Ultra :lms:
1804 Welding :lms:
1840 :dms:

EDIT2:
Proof, that welding is dark always (see attachment) :D
Attachments
ARFC_A_252_Steps.This is not lever-this is dark force.lvl
(1.13 KiB) Downloaded 142 times
Last edited by Votart Silak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby mi2 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:36 am

wait guys. we really have to find a solution for this problem now. a rule like 100%Light, welding light and dark isn't the right way i think. my launcher isn't the ultrasolution for all level, for example if the dillo starts in air. we should wait to see what happens in the next contest´s
by rob on Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:12 am
Banning welding is going to be hard.
i agree with that !

welding was considered as light since 2 or 3 years and now we will chance it?
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby Cresta » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:54 am

mi2 wrote:wait guys. we really have to find a solution for this problem now. a rule like 100%Light, welding light and dark isn't the right way

Why not? We should give a clear rule about what is light and what is dark, half-measure or compromises aren't rules...

rob wrote:Banning welding is going to be hard.

Nobody said that welding should be banned, it should only be considered as dark.

mi2 wrote:we should wait to see what happens in the next contest´s

I have two solutions tweaked to the max both using that launcher.... A 1800+++++ B1300++++++ both " :lms: "

Poll on General Contest Discussion :roll:
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby mi2 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:15 am

Cresta wrote:
rob wrote:Banning welding is going to be hard.

Nobody said that welding should be banned, it should only be considered as dark.


nobody will use welding in 100% dark solutions.

damn i am really confused now :(. considering welding as dark will force us to build some new structures thats cool but i love welding :mrgreen:
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby Cresta » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:22 pm

mi2 wrote:nobody will use welding in 100% dark solutions.
This is also true..

I like weldind too, but the reason is that I can generate lot of power in a cheap way (that's the dark idea) in a light solution.... :?

The proposal of creating a new sub-category between light and dark isn't so attractive I believe... So I think we should decide for:
V4nKw15h wrote:1. Do nothing. Change nothing.
2. Class ANY welding as dark.
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby markmadras » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:48 pm

It would be a great shame to class all welding as Dark as welding is often used without anything being gained from the Dark forces that it may produce. This is a tricky matter to classify, I think that as we are all basically happy with the existing rules that things should stay as they are. The option for a host to clasify all welding as Dark in any contest would add an interesting twist to the game and could be a worthwhile experiment in the next couple of rounds, then we can see how we like it. :)
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby ioncorpse » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:10 pm

3 medals: :lms: (No welding), :dms: , :cms: ( :lms: + welding allowed) :?:
Feel the Power of the Dark Side.
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby V4nKw15h » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:14 pm

For those players that haven't been on the forums for long, this is not the first time the darkness of welding has been contested.

It's not the second or the third time either. It has basically been a problem since I first arrived on the forums and probably well before.

The problem is every time people say
"but there are some welding that doesn't create any force"
or
"but I like welding"
or
"without welding light solutions will be boring".

Etc.

The arguement goes around and around in circles and usually ends up with some vague rule about dark and light. This doesn't work. It's been tested for months, even years, and this vague rule ends up everytime with people exploiting the rules and presenting solutions that are exploding with dark force that are technically light by the rules.

There is little point saying "we shouldn't ban all types of welding" unless you are able to define in a simple sentence the difference between good and bad welding. You can't. We've tried and the rules get bent.

Welding by it's nature is a structure that cannot possibly exist in the real world. Classing all overlapping materials as dark is such a clean and simple solution to the problem. It's takes one sentence to explain to a new player, and removes doubt completely.

Don't fear change just because it's change. Embrace it as a new challenge. I think it would be refreshingly fun to force ALL overlapping into the dark category. It would force us all to find new ways to achieve light results and that I believe is a good thing.

As I said before, we don't need to make an instant decision. I say leave it to each competition host to experiment with the following options.

1. No change. Welding is light.
2. Welding is dark.
3. ALL overlapping is dark.

Take your pick for a while until we have tested it. I bet it's more fun to ban all overlapping, but obviously that's just a guess.
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby Overlord » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:42 pm

I sympathize with Vankwish's view on welding - any intersection should be considered dark, otherwise this very contest will probably have a lot of similar solutions using mi2 launcher, maybe even a tie. We could retain the fun of the contests by disallowing obvious, cheap and powerful light methods of winning. Express your opinion in Crushta's poll (link in my siganture).
All ARFC A contests and solutions 1st-255th: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2245
A tool to copy .lvl2 files to \Levels dir when opened: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2374
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby ioncorpse » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:06 pm

No overlapping = light? :D
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_NoOverlapping_1.lvl
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Re: ARFC_A_252_Steps (till 01.07 20 GMT )

Postby V4nKw15h » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:32 pm

Oh that's a weird one.

Thankfully 99% of dark examples contain some overlapping. If you have any further examples of dark force without overlapping post them up.

We can compile a list of examples although common sense should be enough once this rule is enforced.

Dark Definition: If it's not possible in the real world it's dark.

This includes overlapping materials and nodes, pushing the dillo through solid objects, creating perpetual energy, and any and all exploitation of the physics engine.

That is still very easy to explain, and obvious to a new player.
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