Armadillo Run forum

CN Player wrote:I think FF's light is light,becasue it does not use force.
Let us go on,FF please host the next contest.

I guess you didn't look at the two examples I included that prove that welding creates large ammounts of force. Please take a look CN at the two files I included above.

WeldingCreatesForce.lvl
and
WeldingCreatesForceExtreme.lvl

It's not a small ammount of force either. It's considerable.

ASAM-Your's is technically dark not only because of welding (creates force) but because of overlapping metal bars. See the other example files I included. Especially the NoProductPlacement solution by CN where he can make 2 metal bars weigh more than 9 larger pieces of rubber.

By the rules however ASAM's solution is not dark. Strange considering that it contains more dark force than FF and wolterw's solutions put together.

I don't know what else to say on the matter. I'm definately not saying it because I want a silly medal. I don't want the medal and would refuse it if offered. I'm far more interested in clarifying this light/dark situation so this doesn't keep happening.

As I said before, if it's okay to overlap an end node with a material then the three 2944 solutions are also light. We have to draw the line somewhere and be strict with the rules.

How can we say that a solution is light because it only uses a little bit of dark force? It's like saying that it is okay for an athlete to use drugs as long as he doesn't use much. The 2944 solutions use a split second of dark force to work. Welding creates a constant dark force. Just because it's less obvious to see that dark force doesn't make it any less real. But if a little dark force is acceptable then surely the 2944 solutions would win the light medal. Come on guys, forget the medal and think seriously.

I again point you to the WeldingCreatesForce files I included as proof of this.

If it helps, I agree with everything you've said.

I think generally hosts do use the whole "If it's realistic then it's light" rule. And like Cresta did with this level, if they're not certain then they leave it up to everyone else to figure out if it's realistic or not. From what I've seen in this thread everything was dark up to your solution. I think this system works pretty well.

It's hard to add all occurences of the force in the rules. Also we analyze this solutions so detailed because they are very small. It's very hard to detect force in BIG solutions.
Thats why we have additional rule: HOSTER of the COMPETITION DECIDES which solutions are light and which are dark. Cresta should decide this time.

IMHO: FF, wolterw, ASAM - dark, Ike & Vankwish - light, but FF could make 2940L or at least 2936L after 10minutes of tweaking his 2942D.
But it doesn't metter when we'll be the next comp? The metter it does;)

#EDIT: BY THE WAY, CORRECT MY TITLE! Ike or luka one of you change my name in medal tally once more

!!! CXXXV: L: V4nKw15h and Iioncorpse and Straubitude
!!! LXVI: L: CN Player D: Ioncorpse
Should be "ioncorpse"

It's up to me?
Ok, looking at the situation I'd rather let FF the job of making a new level and would repay him with the medal.

This because I liked very much his solution, even if it was a little dark!
Sorry for all the others, but I think is not so important to decide who is the winner, we are not playing for a medal I hope...
The only matter is to put up another level, this time maybe a liiiitle larger (but not much)!

Thanks to everyone

ioncorpse wrote:Thats why we have additional rule: HOSTER of the COMPETITION DECIDES which solutions are light and which are dark. Cresta should decide this time.

That is probably the best solution here. Poor Cresta He's got a nightmare decision on his hands here. Especially considering in his last competition I submitted a supposed light solution exactly like FF's (it had a cloth node slightly overlapping a metal plate and then used welding and he claimed it was dark by email). Haha. Good luck Cresta.

We are all going to hate you. Only joking.

Edit: Oh, you beat me to the post Cresta. God now I'm confused. I no longer have any idea what is light and dark. If FF's solution is light then so are all the 2944's. They break the same rule.

Cresta wrote:Sorry for all the others, but I think is not so important to decide who is the winner, we are not playing for a medal I hope...

Agreed, I couldn't care less about the medal. I only care about clearing up the whole light/dark problem and in my opinion things just got a whole lot worse. The problem now is that everyone will refer back to this decision when they claim their solution is light.

I'm quite happy to let FF take the medal and host. No problem there at all. But please. Let's clarify these rules or we are going to be in a mess like this in every competition.

ok hears my 2 cents, personally FF is not dark IMO. because hes not really generating any force that shouldn't be there, the movement comes from the downward force of gravity on the metal. the only real way this is dark is that the cloth moves through the metal as it goes , this couldnt happen in real life but i dont think there is any precedent for this type of welding in the past, so by the rules id say its light. very nice solution by the way.

V4nKw15h wrote:The problem now is that everyone will refer back to this decision when they claim their solution is light.

I'd like to point out that this decision was taken ONLY to leave AR contests going on as usual, without losing lot of time discussing what is light and what is dark.

I also agree with you that we need a CLEAR written rule to refer to when we find such cases...

Cresta wrote:

V4nKw15h wrote:The problem now is that everyone will refer back to this decision when they claim their solution is light.

I'd like to point out that this decision was taken ONLY to leave AR contests going on as usual, without losing lot of time discussing what is light and what is dark.

I also agree with you that we need a CLEAR written rule to refer to when we find such cases...

Definately. I had never realised before just how much force a weld creates. It wasn't until I made the WeldingCreatesForce levels (attached above) that I realised just how much force is involved.

Here is a 3rd example of the ammount of force welding creates. This time we can see that a single welded metal bar creates a force more than double what it would normally weigh. It's clear that welding of any type is most definately dark.

Edit: I've added another level to prove that overlapping bars also create significant force. There isn't even any welding required. Take a look.

Too all the other stuff, tl;dr.
To WeldingCreatesForce3 or whatever:
That isn't why it tips over. It tips over because you started the bar that is welding too close to the end node of the horizontal bar, and the horizontal bar is pushed to the right. Then it starts falling because the bar isn't centered on the node.


Edit: Also, I doubt I'd play AR much anymore if welding wasn't light.
A lot of the time, without welding, light solutions wouldn't really be very fun
You wouldn't even do this (See attached).
Sure, that's are easy ways to have built that without welding, but
a) They are more expensive (if you want the same amount of structural support
and
b) With more complicated sctructures, (I'll find one and attach it), you wouldn't be able to do it at all (unless you spend wayyy more).
I'm too lazy to find one. just look at a few winning solutions to competitions and you're bound to find one.

Also, I think an alternative solution do debating what the fine line is between light and dark, is how it is already... kinda... Let the host decide, and just deal with it if the winning light solution isn't obviously dark (Before you say that I wouldn't be saying the same thing if I was the one that was "cheated" out of a medal, I have been).
A lot of light solutions you might think are dark still would work without the intersection of nodes.

IMO welding is 99% light.
We have dark rules for 98% cases, in the rest 2% the hoster should decide...

ioncorpse wrote:IMO welding is 99% light.
We have dark rules for 98% cases, in the rest 2% the hoster should decide...

Agree. Host and maybe moderators as legal power.

V4nKw15h wrote:
Light Solution = anything that obeys the natural laws of physics
in the real world.

I tend to agree, and junked my entry because the top bar 'kicked' off the node. I like realistic stuff.

However, his very comprehensive list excluded 2 things that niggle me - how do you rate a solution in which cloth pulls down through another cloth, and, more dramatically one which uses a heap of cloth to push the dillo through a metal plate?
Both meet the current light rules in that they set off with no incongruities, but they are really unsatisfactory.

decsystem10 wrote:push the dillo through a metal plate?

I said this in the last A results thread.. No one other than JCMD responded though.

TSchultz wrote:JCMD

Lol, who?



Yeah, that (at least) must be changed

JustcallmeDrago wrote:Lol, who?

Your name is long and I was lazy...