DARK RULES REDEFINITION

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Do you want to forbit completely overlapping material, as in the real world, in LIGHT solutions?

Yes, I agree
7
88%
No, I want to keep "grey" structures as light
1
13%
No, I want three medals: light, dark, and welding
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 8

Re: DARK RULES REDEFINITION

Postby V4nKw15h » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:27 pm

mi2 wrote:we can test it no problem but here is what i think.solutions will look very similar. that would take a lot of the spirit i love :(.

considering welding launcher as dark would be fine,considering All overlapping as dark is the wrong way imo :(


Have you considered that the levels themselves will evolve to better accomodate the new rules? It would be up to the host to create something that can be solved in many ways.

This will take some time to test, experiment with, and get good at but if you go back a couple of years the rules on light and dark were much much stricter. There were no problems with identical solutions then and I'm certain there won't be now either.

There was a time (when NickyNick was active) when the slightest glimmer of dark force would be considered dark. This would be the ideal situation but for the problem we experienced of never ending arguements over what was dark and what wasn't. It was very confusing. This lead to more relaxed rules, but now look where that has left us. It failed. Every light solution now utilises dark force in some form or another.

So we have tried extremely strict rules that outlaw any sign of dark force but were open to interpretation. Failed due to confusion.
We have tried defining only specific structures as being dark. Failed due to exploiting the definition of the rules. Failed due to complexity of explaining the rules and confusion.

I can't know any better than anyone else if banning welding or overlapping is a solution that's why we will test all ideas. When it is your turn to host mi2, you can choose whatever rules you think will create a popular competition. We all will. After some time we will know what works and what doesn't.

I find it funny that your worries are that every solution will look similar when every solution RIGHT NOW looks very similar. That's the problem we are trying to solve. :) Everyone using the same launcher is hardly variety.
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Re: DARK RULES REDEFINITION

Postby Overlord » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:18 pm

Right now I'm hosting both contests, the new ULTRA light rules apply to B, but A will remain welding-friendly. Let's see how it goes.
All ARFC A contests and solutions 1st-255th: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2245
A tool to copy .lvl2 files to \Levels dir when opened: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2374
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Re: DARK RULES REDEFINITION

Postby rob » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:46 pm

Time to get this discussion going again. When the ultralight rules were introduced things were ok but not for long.
The ultralight mi2 launcher proved to be almost as strong as the welding version. After that the ultralight perpetual wheel came up. Absolutely no overlapping but endless rotational force. Next came the sledge design and most recently a construction to push the dillo trough a small tube.

All these constructions depend on the same principle: If a long and a short bar are connected to eachother on one end and are allowed to push against eachother at the other end the long bar wins even if the weight on the side of the short bar is quite a bit more.

What to do:
1- Leave ultralight as is. No overlapping but if you are able to create force that's ok.

2- Leave ultralight as is with the additional rule: no perpetual motion. You would still be able to create force but no wheel or sledge

3- No force allowed. This is going to be tough. A lot of structures generate some force, sometimes unnotable but still there. The only foolproof option would be to ban bars that touch eachother at any point that is not a shared node (and this not only in starting position but throughout the duration of the solution)

Whatever we do we need very clear rules about what is dark. Letting the host decide sounds nice but if you just spend hours tweaking your solution and the host decides it is not light is no fun at all.

I added a file with some examples of ultralight force to clarify what I mean. All have 2 or more bars of different length pushing into eachother.
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Re: DARK RULES REDEFINITION

Postby markmadras » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:00 pm

I wrote this at the same time as Rob put his post in. It looks like we have some common ground but Rob has not suggested the use of AR2. This is my opinion and I too see some choices. All comments would be welcome as this needs to be decided on soon. I would suggest though until a final decission is made that all hosts define there own rules in respect of what they will accept as Light and Dark or there will be continued confussion especially for any newcomers.

As Dark energy is still put to use in Light solutions it has to be clearly defined and not left up to the host to pass judgement on submissions as they are received. I feel this is important, the making of a solution can be very time consuming and it detracts from the pleasure of the game if after two hours of tweaking a Light solution you are told "Sorry in my opinion that is Dark. We all know what is Dark and what is Light but we have to know what is "classed" as Dark and what is "classed" as Light.

We have a choice. We leave things as they are and agree to class everything as Light as per the existing rules, this would allow continued use of the mi2 launcher (present Light version) and the Dark energy produced by squeezing nodes and layering materials with no limitation. No host should class a solution as Dark just because a construction is so obviously producing Dark energy unless it is clearly specified at the start of the contest. This obviously has to be on the lines of "No squeezing of nodes and no layering of material" and not just "If your solution has a lot of Dark energy it will be classed as Dark, it must be a definite and clear rule and not a matter of the hosts opinion.

An alternative which would put an end to any futher debate on the matter would be to change over to AR2 for all light solutions, welding could be allowed again because it cannot produce any Dark energy but is a very usefull construction method and you would not be able to infringe any rules, even by mistake. Further disagreements on Light and Dark rules will be completely eliminated. :D

There is still some Dark energy in the AR2 but this should be removed in the final version. At present, unless Peter has changed this, it is not possible to PM AR2 solutions, they can only be sent by email. If this problem still exists I am sure Peter can sort it out if we choose to go for AR2.
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Re: DARK RULES REDEFINITION

Postby mi2 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:02 pm

so this means no overlapping and some force = light? cool so now i will alway use this as light Image

dudes force is always dark. about 1 month ago i already called the new light mi2 launcher as dark but no reaction. the main different is that some forces just last for some milliseconds ( light mi2 launcher) and some can last up to infinity ( rotating machines). as vank said here in that thread
If it's impossible in the real world it should be dark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion endless ratating machines are impossible :idea: !!!
inventor of the mi2 launcher :)
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Re: DARK RULES REDEFINITION

Postby markmadras » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:56 pm

Fair comment mi2 but the main problem here is not what is Light and what is Dark, the problem is what we are going to allow in a Light solution, do we continue to allow some Dark force produced by squeezing nodes and layering or do we ban it and not allow any hint of Dark force in a Light solution in which case changing over to AR2 for all future Light solutions would be the best bet. We would also enjoy the new twist of variable gravity and more than one Dillo.

The previous part of this Topic was never fully concluded, only that we would try it and see what would happen if the rules for welding were left up to the host. The majority of contests have been run without welding and most players seem perfectly happy, but as a consequence new ways have been discovered to generate Dark energy in varying degrees. These new ways of creating energy have replaced most of what could be achieved with welding so little has been accomplished and we are back where we started, with a debate over what is virtually the same problem. I think most of us thought that without welding we would not have any more Dark force in Light solutions but this has not turned out to be the case.

For everything to be fair and to keep the rules as simple as possible (especially in respect of newcomers) this issue has got to be resolved so that the Dark rules definition is made crystal clear. A host should always have the power to redefine some rules but it should not be up to the host to judge if something is "too Dark" or not. The rules cannot be left to the hosts personal opinion, we all need to know when we make a solution if it is Dark or Light and not have to think "I wonder if the host will judge this to be Dark or Light".

I say "lets change to AR2" then there can be no more debates on the Dark force and we can enjoy the new elements of the game.

What do the rest of you all think :?: :?: :?:

EDIT. I have added examples of the construction which started this debate. The top one was not classed Dark, the bottom one was. The top one appears to have more power but the bottom one, due to the rope will continue to rotate. With all the variables involved it would be near to impossible to define a clear rulling between these two constructions. The rope adds quite a lot of power, obviously creating more Dark energy, something that I have not seen used before. If you build this in AR2 it requires four full length bars on top to lift the steel plate.

I must say before this debate goes any further that I have no ill feeling towards mi2 for making this decision during the contest, he did what he felt was correct and for that I commend him. My hope is, that with a little effort, any repeat of this situation can be avoided and on this occasion the debate can be brought to a full and complete conclusion.

Please go to this link and make a vote on AR2 viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2351
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