Randomity should be a word

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Randomity should be a word

Postby Njaa » Sat May 26, 2007 2:44 am

In the early days of this forum, when I was still a young lurker, there were magnificent levels which were fun to play. These were levels that, more often than not, made you rely on planning and creating actual contraptions to get across whatever obstacles that level offered. For some reason someone decided this was a bad way of doing things, and the erratic age began.

What I'm bringing up here is, of course, very subjective. I haven't actually performed scientific polls and studied the matter, but I know I'm not alone. If someone takes offense from this, well good, cause I want people to think about this.

Today the average contest level is dominated by levels which almost always feature things like falling debrief, dark-powered elements, or, the scourge of this game; loose rockets. Often many of these combined. If you have these kinds of things in a level, there is bound to be a way to solve it using a minimum of material. This doesn't really sound too bad, does it? Well, the problem is that these kinds of objects are chaotic.

I do not enjoy chaos. Chaos is what you get when there are too many (small) elements acting together, so that a small variation in any one of them will change the outcome of the system, as a whole, drastically. The problem is that there is NO way for the human mind to actually logically deduct how you should change a chaotic structure to make it better. You are just guessing. Guessing takes time, nothing more. Of course, you can add more and more material to the erratic object to make it behave and travel in a much more determinable path, but then you've already lost to whoever uses just one length of rope and five extra hours to tweak it to the portal. I do not enjoy chaos.

While you can remove all the elements of chaos from the level itself, it's still just as easy for the player to add material himself, and tweak on. My plea isn't to ban rockets or anything such. My plea is for us to think about making levels that reward good concepts, not just too much time. There are many, in mine and many other's view, prime examples of these kinds of levels. SkiJump64C, CrimsonKing, CaverOfKafka, and my own Spelunking are just some of these. (I remember some of these, because I won them, fair enough, but I choose to think I can judge them somewhat fair even so) We call these genres of levels "traveler" levels, in honor of ?rjan's contribution to A league 14. (we miss your resluts :))

I have nothing against tweaking, as long as there is a somewhat clear purpose, and consistency in its effects. Bottom line (for me) is that problems that can be solved with nifty concepts should be far more frequent than problems solved with chaos. Lately entire levels, not just parts of them, have been totally dominated by chaotic elements. *shrugs*

Another issue, much bigger than I think people admit, is our rules. I've brought this up many times before, and got little response. I'll try again. *takes a big breath* We have lousy rules.

We have inconsistent rules that not only are illogical, but give the host of the level far too much power. Why should the host have to decide whether or not a solution is qualified for the light medal or not? Isn't this in itself a big fat red warning saying that our rules are just not strong enough? I can elaborate, but I have, so many times already, so I won't. Unless people actually want to hear. Again.

And while I fear we are a minority of silent, discontent, 'dillo soldiers, I still want to say everything I feel should be said. Be it, as it may, my epitaph. *is very dramatic*

Thank you.
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Postby luka1222 » Sat May 26, 2007 12:32 pm

probly one of the most intelligent and well worded things ive read in this forum, although you sort of lost me with the rules thing. that said i totally agree with you on the whole situaltion. i think the problem is level design, well the only problem we can solve anyway. back in the day allong time ago when most of you were twinkles in a dillos eye we made levels according to the a and b comp giuldlines, an a level was supposed to be completed in an hour. b should be solved in three. i think the actual rules we made along time ago for this exact thing have been lost or simply not read. dudoibug as always did an amazing job at giving advice for people on how to make a good level for a comp i just think people dont read it.

http://armadillo.metaclassofnil.com/for ... php?t=1003

but i mean i see what you are saying and i think people putting a bit more thought into level design would help this but at the end of the day you can never tell the people that have loads of time to spend on this that they cant spend it tweaking and tweaking thats there choice.

the rules we have are fine i just think they should be read , remembered , and kept in mind more often.
of all the things ive lost i miss my mind the most.
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Postby NickyNick » Sat May 26, 2007 12:38 pm

Finally somebody touched this theme. Njaa has got the point. The problem we are facing is a lot of "extra tweaky" levels. People don't want to play them, because that have not so much time for tweaking and they are sure, that some insane tweaker will beat them.
I can look through my own hosting experience. I've hosted 16 levels so far, and, unfortunately, I can say that more than 80% were quite bad. I really like only two levels created by me: A Contest #53 "Good, Bad, Ugly" and A Contest #64 "Dumb hill". On other side, both of them have been won by enormous rocket tweaks by Unw, but there were plenty of different concepts, and I hope that these levels were funny to play. All of my next levels were: a) chaotic (like current B 39), or b) linear. Summing up this, I can say that I'm very bad level maker.
So, here is the problem: not so many of people can create good levels. Maybe, we can select some ppl like Orjan who have good creativity and ask them to create levels for all contests? Though, it is very big work for them, and we can't do in such way.
I don't know what do. Sorry for wasting your time for reading this rubbish.
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Postby luka1222 » Sat May 26, 2007 12:41 pm

its easy, when in doubt if you cant invent a good level then a void level never fails :D
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Postby NickyNick » Sat May 26, 2007 12:52 pm

I don't think so. Void level if there are a lot of different ways for solving it (remember A Contest "OriOn" by Ikerous? great level, one of the best). It is as hard as creating not-void level... IMO
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Postby luka1222 » Sat May 26, 2007 1:23 pm

all im saying is a void level automatically gets rid of all the loose rockets and falling stuff he is on about, the fact you have to biuld everything your self makes it less tweaky and more reliant on your concept for solving it
of all the things ive lost i miss my mind the most.
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Postby JonathanF » Sat May 26, 2007 8:44 pm

Not really, look at Nick's void level "No metal"... ;)
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Postby Ikerous » Sat May 26, 2007 10:51 pm

I wanna start a thread. It could be a level repository. People can reply with a level they've made and I'll add their name and the title of the level to the main post like this:

NickyNick - MapName: +4
WolterW - RollerCosters: +2
unw - Midnight: +0

Along with a link to the post that the level was submitted in

Where the number on the ends is the number of upvotes for that map. All you have to do to upvote a map is reply to the thread with the name of the map and say +1. You upvote a map if you think it'd make a really good map for a competition. Now when someone wins and doesn't have a map planned and doesn't have time to make one, they have somewhere to go that they can just pick out a map and use that one. And this way we're all more likely to get a fun map for a competition that isn't tweaky or chaotic.

The most obvious problem with this system is that people will have had time to see the maps before they were used in a competition. And that fact should simply motivate people to only use the repository only if they really have to. This would prevent those last minute maps that are thrown together without being play tested, which is what causes most maps to be so chaotic or unfun. Besides, i normally stop tweaking a map after a day or two no matter how long the competition is. So time limits on competitions never really changed my final score. And if a map is used in a competition or someone goes and uploads a solution, it would be removed from the list.

Good idea, awful idea?
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Postby NickyNick » Mon May 28, 2007 2:22 pm

I think good idea. Two questions?
- How will we count votes for new-posted level? Are all ppl at the forum able to vote for it, or just those who haven't voted before? Second looks silly, I know :) But, if all guys will reply and vote for each map, it will take very big amount of posts at the thread :?
- Maybe, there must be ability to say "-1" for the map (with explanation of its disadvantages)?
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Postby Overlord » Mon May 28, 2007 2:26 pm

Maybe posting screenshots instead if .lvl files would prevent people from tweaking beforehand?
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Postby luka1222 » Mon May 28, 2007 5:26 pm

yeah just have screenshots of the levels not the files ,
and for voting just have a poll on the post :D
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Postby NickyNick » Mon May 28, 2007 5:42 pm

The poll isn't solution. When new level is added, people can't vote for it because they have already voted before. This way, we need new subforum ("Contest levels Repository"), where each thread will be used used for one level. Hey, it's idea :idea: :)

I don't like screenshots idea. IMO, it is hard to understand all level ideas and solution ways, just looking on its screenshot - without tasting it by hands.
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Postby Ikerous » Mon May 28, 2007 6:09 pm

In order to vote you'd just say the name of the map you want to vote for and say +1 (i.e "Midnight +1"). Then when I read the thread (I'm here a few hundred times a day :P) i'd update the main post with the total votes. That way everyone can vote on every map and it'll all be in one thread so we don't need a whole subforum opened just for it. And the main post would have a link directly to each level to keep it all organized.

At first I liked the screenshot option but nicky might be right. It can be pretty hard to tell how fun a map will be merely by the screenshot of it. I normally don't even notice a level is tweaky util i've been screwing around with it for ten minutes. Plus if theres just screenshots then how would people get the actual lvl file. Then they'd have to email someone and then they'd have to send them the lvl file and it'd just delay the whole process that this would be intended to speed up. The whole point is to get new maps up as quickly as possible
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Postby dudiobugtron » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:13 am

luka1222 wrote:dudoibug as always did an amazing job at giving advice for people on how to make a good level for a comp i just think people dont read it.

http://armadillo.metaclassofnil.com/for ... php?t=1003


woah, thanks heaps for the compliment luka!

However I didn't really write most of it - PeterT compiled it with help from other people's input - kingofthespill and BFC etc. I just updated it for the N and C contests.
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Re: Randomity should be a word

Postby Reuben » Fri May 31, 2013 4:23 pm

Njaa wrote:In the early days of this forum, when I was still a young lurker, there were magnificent levels which were fun to play. These were levels that, more often than not, made you rely on planning and creating actual contraptions to get across whatever obstacles that level offered. For some reason someone decided this was a bad way of doing things, and the erratic age began.


Well said Njaa!

I am relatively new to this forum, so I haven't had a chance to read all the history in all the threads - so perhaps this has already been discussed in length. But I agree that it would be great to somehow give credit for solutions that solve levels in a way that would actually work (repeatably) in the real world. Perhaps future versions of the game could include a factor to add some unpredictability - and then to win you would have to run the simulation multiple times in a row to prove that your win was not just a fluke of "randomity".
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