WHAT MAKES A LEVEL GOOD?

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WHAT MAKES A LEVEL GOOD?

Postby Cresta » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:39 pm

What makes a level GOOD

What I?m trying to do now is writing a guideline for level creation, that find out what really makes a level good for a contest, and enjoyable to play!
This is what I think before creating a level, and I though it could be interesting to confront various opinions about this thread, also because other people asked for it:

I distinguish 3 types of level:

1) Portal OVER the dillo

Image

2) Portal UNDER the dillo

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3) Portal AT THE SAME HIGH of the dillo

Image






For each one of this types, there is a sub-category:

a) the VOID level

Image

b) the RUN level

Image

c) the TWEAKY level

Image

When you create a level you ALWAYS have to think at HOW people will try to solve it: the way you create a level will lead to a specific kind of solution, so, be careful when you place your objects in the map!!!!



Get started analyzing levels from the first type:

1) Portal OVER the dillo:


This is a level in which the player needs to give energy to the dillo (difficult, so there is often risk of the boring level), and it could be done in 3 (light) ways:

? With tensioned rubber
    This is the best way when there are NO OBSTACLE between the portal and the dillo, so do not put them if you want to see solutions like this!
    The obstacles will have to be at the same high of the portal, or immediately before, NOT near the dillo!! The difficulty in the level should be in building the catcher?
    If you put obstacles on the run of the dillo people will try the second type of solution, that is

? The pulley
    This is an old type of solution, people will get BORED developing it, so, please, try not to force people in build one of them, it will make your level BORING to play!

? Other stuff
    IMHO, this is the best way for solving a level! For example, if you leave high space over the armadillo, and some anchor point immediately under it, skilled people could build a catapult, putting falling objects or using BIG falling object placed BY YOU in the level (even better)!
    You can put rocket-powered rotating objects, that give propulsion to the dillo if well used (it shouldn?t be too easy)?

    An idea is to put the portal immediately over the armadillo, so people will build lifting machines, different from pulleys, that are often original and funny to develop!
    In this case the important thing is putting anchors in the right place!!


VOID level: OK but NO obstacles
RUN level: absolutely NO
TWEAKY level: OK



2) Portal UNDER the dillo:


In this case gravity will do the work, things are simple!
Put obstacles on the armadillo?s run, like materials to be broken, walls to be avoided, TIMERS that close doors, vacant rockets, rocket-powered rotating objects!
Do not leave big open spaces, in this case they are useless!!

Try to make this kind of level not too simple, so make big levels, or RUN levels with tiny points difficult to enter?.
A good idea is to make different ways that lead to the portal, every one with nearly the same difficulty!


VOID level: NO
RUN level: OK
TWEAKY level: NOT SO GOOD



3) Portal AT THE SAME HIGH of the dillo (or immediately under):


In this case we must analyze in particular the sub categories:

VOID level:
    The distance between the portal and the armadillo is fundamental: it shouldn?t bee too much or too much less, the right distance could be the normal length of the ?new level? window, or a bit more?
    The obstacles in the middle should be vertical, or oblique, or a big object.
    I suggest the stuff of the ?portal over the dillo? thread?

RUN level:
    This kind of map is OK, but the way (or the ways) to get to the portal shouldn?t be too tiny, or the level will become hard to solve.

TWEAKY level:
    I think that this kind of level is difficult to create, and not so enjoyable to play?



VOID level: OK if is not big and not small
RUN level: OK if ways are large
TWEAKY level: NO




___________________________________________________________________________________________________



General suggestions:


    ? In every level, try to put ONE big difficulty, or a couple of small ones to deal with, so players won?t get annoyed by the map.

    ? The catcher is fundamental: if you have made a hard level, BUILD a catcher in the map, or put the portal on a metal plate, so people won?t have to tweak unstable boring catchers.

    ? Try to avoid closing the dillo in boxes or small places to be broken, this is not good, it is very often BORING!

    ? Theme levels are good to watch, rarely to play?

    ? Test your levels before posting them!!!!!




I?d like to point that these are MY personal ideas, I don?t want to establish any RULE, I just want to help people with no ideas or no experience explaining MY point of view, anybody can disagree with all the points of my guideline.

Hope this work could be useful to anybody!!
Also hope to receive answers and to start a useful debate!!!


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Postby NickyNick » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:06 pm

I'll sticky it, it's great :) Thanks for writing this, Cresta!
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Re: WHAT MAKES A LEVEL GOOD?

Postby JohnnyRoastbeef » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:53 am

Cresta wrote:What makes a level GOOD
[list]IMHO, this is the best way for solving a level! For example, if you leave high space over the armadillo, and some anchor point immediately under it, skilled people could build a catapult, putting falling objects or using BIG falling object placed BY YOU in the level (even better)!
You can put rocket-powered rotating objects, that give propulsion to the dillo if well used (it shouldn?t be too easy)?
Cresta



I actually disagree with this. I realize that I'm a "newbie" in terms of competition success, but this sort of solution is one of the least interesting to me. When you make a level with a falling object that you place, or with a rocket that you've placed, people an use them in (IMHO) asinine ways. When somebody attaches a short rope to a pre-existing rocket and allows that rope to launch the rocket all over the level looping and swooping and accomplishing 50 things, it makes for an interesting view, but not an interesting competition. The reason is that the solution is not robust. If you move the node by 1 pixel, your solution breaks completely. I personally find a lot more value in a solution that works (or at least behaves in close to a similar fashion) even if you move something by a few pixels.
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Re: WHAT MAKES A LEVEL GOOD?

Postby JustcallmeDrago » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:33 am

JRB wrote:I actually disagree with this. I realize that I'm a "newbie" in terms of competition success, but this sort of solution is one of the least interesting to me. When you make a level with a falling object that you place, or with a rocket that you've placed, people an use them in (IMHO) asinine ways. When somebody attaches a short rope to a pre-existing rocket and allows that rope to launch the rocket all over the level looping and swooping and accomplishing 50 things, it makes for an interesting view, but not an interesting competition. The reason is that the solution is not robust. If you move the node by 1 pixel, your solution breaks completely. I personally find a lot more value in a solution that works (or at least behaves in close to a similar fashion) even if you move something by a few pixels.


I agree about the pixel moving for basically the whole solution, but precision is pretty neat. I think levels should be larger (and when was the last time you REALLY worked on a level for 1.5 hours??) so there can be more parts that need to be done, not just one objective. I mean for example: bridge a gap > break through a wall > squeeze through a space > etc. Rather than: Go left > go down > go right > drop into portal. I tried to design my T levels with this in mind... you'll see in 2 days :D

Other than that, great guide! It so much better than mine, and I hope mine inspired you to make this. lol
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Postby Cresta » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:02 pm

Infact I was inspired by your post!! :D

Anyway, aswering to johnny, the fact that the solution is not robust makes it worth to get a medal!
Is the unreality of the solution that is fascinating...
You spend nearly nothing, you win in a chorus of WOWs and CONGRATZ, what's better in a contest???


Ps:
I also wanna start a thread in which people critically comment the most significant levels, just to understand what players really like or dislike!
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Re: WHAT MAKES A LEVEL GOOD?

Postby McGinge » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:58 pm

JustcallmeDrago wrote: when was the last time you REALLY worked on a level for 1.5 hours??


Your frigging T contest, Jarlids!!! I ACTUALLY spent nearly 2 hours getting a solution to work!!! :D :twisted: :D

(I like to spend ages making a really good solution, than attempting to complete it straight away with rockets and then build up...)
In an ideal world, where anything and everything is in perfect form, is there a perfect form of imperfection?

Work THAT one out! :)
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Re: WHAT MAKES A LEVEL GOOD?

Postby JustcallmeDrago » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:40 pm

McGinge wrote:
JustcallmeDrago wrote: when was the last time you REALLY worked on a level for 1.5 hours??


Your frigging T contest, Jarlids!!! I ACTUALLY spent nearly 2 hours getting a solution to work!!! :D :twisted: :D

(I like to spend ages making a really good solution, than attempting to complete it straight away with rockets and then build up...)


You just refuted yourself on the spot...

I said REALLY and you said "I spent 2 hours on a good solution." Doing it with rockets is what I'm talking about. I think we need more levels like that, with an A-league difficulty, but just make them longer!! The levels now are much too short (unless they're void levels, which I suck at and end up not completing them at all.

I'm sorry, I just get ideas like this one:

It might sound a lot like the Design contest, but how about a level design competition (oh wow that level was so much fun to complete, I'll vote for it!)?
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Postby TSchultz » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:32 pm

JARLIDS IS AMAZING. Once Drago posts the solutions, I HIGHLY recommend trying it out before you look at the solutions.
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Postby JustcallmeDrago » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:07 am

TSchultz wrote:JARLIDS IS AMAZING. Once Drago posts the solutions, I HIGHLY recommend trying it out before you look at the solutions.


Lol thanks. after the results, let's discuss it!
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Re: WHAT MAKES A LEVEL GOOD?

Postby Connor » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:36 am

tnk it might become useful
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